Holy smokes

[Haruka]

You guys want to read this:

www.unseen64.net/2012/12/29/croc-3-stone-of-the-gobbos-cancelled-ps2-xbox-gamecube/

Finally we know something about the canceled Croc 3! Reading this article made me more sad about the bankrupcy of Argonaut.

[SoniCroc]

Wow! I never expected to hear any information about Croc 3. So do you guys suppose ZeniMax still owns the rights to Croc then? How does this fit with the whole Morpheme / Croc Mobile stuff?

[Forte Wily]

Good find!

I have only one question, here: Who on Earth are Zenimax? I've never heard of them.

My understanding is that the rights have since reverted to Jez San, who, last I heard, is with Ninja Theory (I assume that, prior to this, the rights were licensed to, rather than owned by, Morpheme Mobile, Ltd.). I tried to contact Ninja Theory via e-mail once a couple of years back, but unfortunately never received a reply (not even an auto-response), so I just drew a line under it and left it at that.

Anyway, the plot claimed here sounds rather better to me than Croc 2's, and possibly answers something that puzzled me regarding Croc 2, back in the day. Do you guys remember how a great many magazine previews throughout 1998 and the first half of 1999 mentioned that the message-in-a-bottle that Croc found was a ruse, and that finding his parents was likely to be a trap? (I'm sure you know that the game doesn't reflect this, and might, as I do, feel that the ending feels a bit out-of-place. )

When I visited Argonaut in 1999, I asked about this, and they basically said that they couldn't talk about that (I noticed that the information on this disappeared from previews around that time, or slightly before, too). I now wonder if perhaps it was shuffled off in order to be a part of Croc 3's plot, instead. After all, it's too easy for the Gobbos to get into trouble again with Croc out of the picture and back with his parents (or should that be "parents"?), isn't it? (EDIT: And we already know from Croc: Legend of the Gobbos that Baron Dante can do some pretty powerful magic and change the form of creatures.)

I guess it just wasn't meant to be, though, and is now not likely to ever be. After all, someone somewhere decided that making optimistic, fun games that are actually games and not fifty-hour-long-cutscenes-with-some-occasional-button-pressing is old-hat and therefore bad, and that it makes a developer's image look bad or some nonsense, a lot of developers complied, and a lot of gamers swallowed it hook, line, and sinker, and denigrate anyone who enjoys fun, light-hearted games as a result of it. (Just look at all those folks who wail "WAAAH KIDDIE!!" virtually at seeing a colour in a video game that isn't a shade of brown and noticing a lack of unnecessary blood... )

[Haruka]

I also hadn't any knowledge about ZeniMax so far until I got told its a giant company that owns Bethesda Softworks and the Fallout/The Elder Scrolls franchises.

So, yeah...

[Forte Wily]

Intriguing... This just makes the whole rights thing even more confusing.

It was the chaps from Morpheme, if memory serves, who mentioned about the rights being with Jez San, so I wonder what happened? After all, I'd thought that they'd stayed with Jez San to begin with, and were licensed to Morpheme, until you posted about this.

[Haruka]

I can only say I heard that both ZeniMax and Jez San own nowadays the copyright of Croc.

[SoniCroc]

Jan 14, 2013 14:33:20 GMT -5 Forte Wily said:

After all, someone somewhere decided that making optimistic, fun games that are actually games and not fifty-hour-long-cutscenes-with-some-occasional-button-pressing is old-hat and therefore bad...

But I like cutscenes. Or at least cutscenes in certain games, like in Kingdom Hearts. I hate the cutscenes in Sonic Colors though. *ahem* But yes, I agree with you about the dominance of violent videogames (with the possible exception of Nintendo).

Then again, Rayman has been rebooted. Klonoa has been rebooted. Spyro has been rebooted. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Croc will probably be rebooted at some point too. I see no reason why not. The real question is whether or not that's a good thing.

Anyway, I am intrigued by this possibility that Croc's parents... aren't! Yeah, I never really liked that ending. It just seemed a little odd. But hey, I bet Croc liked it! (Assuming they are his real parents, that is.)

[Forte Wily]

Jan 16, 2013 7:46:09 GMT -5 Haruka said:

I can only say I heard that both ZeniMax and Jez San own nowadays the copyright of Croc.

I don't suppose you have any further information or links on that, do you, please? I'd really like to know more.

Jan 18, 2013 16:02:59 GMT -5 SoniCroc said:

But I like cutscenes. Or at least cutscenes in certain games, like in Kingdom Hearts. I hate the cutscenes in Sonic Colors though.

Cutscene dominance is an enormous problem, though, because this is an interactive medium. Whilst there's nothing especially wrong with VERY short - and most importantly, unintrusive - bits of scene-setting (games as far back as the NES, at least, have this; In later times, Croc: Legend of the Gobbos, and Klonoa - Door To Phantomile, are examples of getting it right), there's plenty wrong when there's more cutscene than game in a game. The clue's in the name: They're video games, not video movies or (as most "games" these days seem to be) video chores... If folks want to make movies, they should go and work with that medium, instead.

*ahem* But yes, I agree with you about the dominance of violent videogames (with the possible exception of Nintendo).

There's a trend that young people today are not as interested in video games as the couple of generations before them. There's a reason for that - you mention only one company catering to other tastes on a regular basis, there, and aside from Nintendo there are probably only a handful who bother (many of whom are derided by gamers-who-have-different-tastes-and-happen-to-be-loud for it)... Almost nobody is bringing new people in.

That said, one only has to look at the best-selling games ever to roughly see where tastes really are/have been at present. The top 50, (or the top 100, if you want a wider range) shows an interesting look at this, though of course, it's missing some historical data, so don't take it completely at face-value. That doesn't detract from the interestingness, though.

Then again, Rayman has been rebooted.

In a horrible, badly-drawn wannabe-"cartoonish" style, ditching the better-drawn artwork of previous games, with a poorly-designed, bug-filled game (myself, I gave up when I got stuck in walls continually, and then found myself encountering unfair, unintuitive level/scenery design, some of it of the sort that was considered a bad idea around 25 years ago). (People are too busy being wowed by pretties to notice, however...)

Klonoa has been rebooted.

Badly, by removing all the soul and charm. He hasn't been seen since. (As an aside, it could be argued that Klonoa has been rebooted twice, since Klonoa 2 bears little relation to the original, itself.)

Spyro has been rebooted.

This one's debatable as a reboot, as it feels more like Spyro was put in Skylanders in order to preserve the Spyro brand rather than to reboot it (in fact, the Skylanders literature nicely ties together both previous Spyro continuities in a way that can be either accepted or ignored as you prefer) - it would stand just as well without him. Fun game, though - the only one in this set that I have anything good to say about.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Croc will probably be rebooted at some point too. I see no reason why not. The real question is whether or not that's a good thing.

Reboots are invariably bad ideas for one reason or another, because they always miss the point and spirit of the originals. I'd have to say, much as I'd love to see a new Croc game, I'd hate to see a reboot, and if that's the only option, I'd prefer they just left it be. (Gaming is fraught with examples of companies who didn't leave well enough alone, I think. )

I mean, remember what happened with the previous Spyro reboot? Cartoon characters (looking more-or-less the same as the original games, even), but DARK AND ANGSTY!! Totally didn't work, though the fact that a collection of high-level people seriously thought it would, to the point that they wrote and released a trilogy of them (not forgetting to use them as vehicles for celebrity voice-actors) is still a hilarious notion, even now.

Anyway, I am intrigued by this possibility that Croc's parents... aren't! Yeah, I never really liked that ending. It just seemed a little odd. But hey, I bet Croc liked it! (Assuming they are his real parents, that is.)

But if they're not? Well, it's not like we'll ever know, I suppose, but it's interesting to imagine.

[Haruka]

Jan 18, 2013 16:02:59 GMT -5 SoniCroc said:

Then again, Rayman has been rebooted.

I have to correct you because what you said is not true. Rayman wasn't rebooted and didn't have any reboot, Ubisoft also corrected people thinking in that. What happened is that after 8 years since the last cannon Rayman game (Rayman 3: Hoodlum Havoc) was released to the market, a fourth cannon game was finally released under the name of Rayman Origins. "Origins" because it returns to the roots of the 2D gameplay, and not because it is a reboot or a prequel of Rayman 1 (The team originally wanted to make it a prequel but at the last moment they decided to change, without we knowing the true reasons because I honestly think the original script, that is still stored in files of the discs, would turn out a much better game for the veteran fans like me). Although as a platformer and terms of art-style, they are fantastic and won dozens of awards for "Best Platformer Game of 2011" and "Best Art/Graphics of 2011", my other opinion as "fan" says that the game isn't the best of the series and the selection of artists wasn't the most correct at all (I'm not saying the art style sucks, but I find it too much Earthling with very few exceptions. They should have betted in the art-style of Rayman 1, fantasy-alike). Fortunately next month the 5th game, Rayman Legends, comes to the Wii U and I'm looking forward for it since by trying the demo it seems that Ubisoft fixed some "mistakes" from Rayman Origins.

Jan 18, 2013 16:02:59 GMT -5 @Forte Willy said:

In a horrible, badly-drawn wannabe-"cartoonish" style, ditching the better-drawn artwork of previous games (...)

Read what I wrote above. (I can note that the characters look dumb in here because of what they wanted to do with the game when they were thinking in it being a prequel, while I think it was both a mistake of changing it and still keeping the characters looking dumb.) Personally, I think Ubisoft is fixing also the art-style picked up in RO with Rayman Legends. Try to Google for pictures/trailers of it.

Jan 18, 2013 16:02:59 GMT -5 @Forte Willy said:

...with a poorly-designed, bug-filled game (myself, I gave up when I got stuck in walls continually, and then found myself encountering unfair, unintuitive level/scenery design, some of it of the sort that was considered a bad idea around 25 years ago). (People are too busy being wowed by pretties to notice, however...)

Glitches? I never had glitches at any point of the game and I finished it three-times, I'm serious. Which version were you playing of Rayman Origins? If you played on PC, there are patches available.

I don't have big complains in the level design except for the too-linear gameplay. It feels like its rushing you, and I also didn't like a lot how they made the cages so easy to find.

Moving on.

Jan 18, 2013 16:02:59 GMT -5 @Forte Willy said:

I don't suppose you have any further information or links on that, do you, please? I'd really like to know more.

I don't have written information but I can guarantee you its a true thing since the source I heard this is from other trustable Croc fans that aren't in the forum. Its the only thing I know.

[Forte Wily]

Jan 20, 2013 8:15:20 GMT -5 Haruka said:

Jan 18, 2013 16:02:59 GMT -5 @Forte Willy said:

I don't suppose you have any further information or links on that, do you, please? I'd really like to know more.

I don't have written information but I can guarantee you its a true thing since the source I heard this is from other trustable Croc fans that aren't in the forum. Its the only thing I know.

I'm afraid you'll have to pardon my skepticism, then. I can't see any evidence of this out there, even through various trademark searches from various nations/regions.

It all seems to trace back to the one mention of Zenimax on the page linked to at the start of this post, which is anonymous in nature - it merely claims the info came from an ex-Argonaut employee, and nothing else. How do they know that for sure?

What's to say, playing Devil's Advocate for a second here, that the information given to that site is genuine, itself?

Not only that, but how would other fans have this information, when it's seemingly not available in places of official record? (Such as the US and European trademark bodies, which should have this recorded.)

I'm not disputing that the people you refer to are trustworthy individuals, but this information not existing in places such as the above does seem strange to me, to be quite honest.

[Haruka]

Actually many true things appear in Unseen64, since its about prototypes, betas or even cancelled games so it isn't surprising at all why it was revealed in there (I don't think sites like IGN would bother in publishing an article about a game that almost everybody forgot at this point, except for the loyal fans). Its not the first time I've tried to search for infos in there.

[Forte Wily]

Jan 21, 2013 3:49:06 GMT -5 Haruka said:

Actually many true things appear in Unseen64, since its about prototypes, betas or even cancelled games so it isn't surprising at all why it was revealed in there (I don't think sites like IGN would bother in publishing an article about a game that almost everybody forgot at this point, except for the loyal fans). Its not the first time I've tried to search for infos in there.

I don't doubt that, but a claim without proof is just a rumour, and that's what this is. The only other mention of it out there is an uncited claim, near-identical to the Unseen64 article, on Wikipedia, which, like the Unseen64 article, does not fit with established facts.

Moreover, the fact that the linked page containing the rumour can seemingly be edited by anyone inspires no confidence whatsoever (as does the fact that it makes a provably false claim about where and what ended the Croc franchise).

A new Croc game, according to an e-mail exchange of my own in 2004 which took place sadly not long before Argonaut went bust, was never started, but was, so I was told, being considered for the PS2 and possibly others "as they get into younger hands", and/or possibly for the then-new Nintendo DS and Sony PlayStation Portable, which both, briefly, towards the end of Argonaut's life, appeared in the list of systems they developed for on their homepage, before being removed again shortly before the end (I assume because it was known they would never release anything for them). This doesn't jive with what's claimed in the article.

It's very strange how the article implies, with "even if development was started", that development may never have been started, but then goes on to say that another company "had Mud Duck Productions continue development" - that's not at all consistent within itself. (It's also strange because Mud Duck Productions mostly published games, rather than developed them. The last game they ever actually developed was released in 2003. After that, it was just publishing, as far as I can tell.)

Odder still is the claim of unspecified "trouble with the developer". After all, if there were troubles with this developer, why are they still a subsidiary of Zenimax, and why did they continue to publish games long afterwards? After all, "trouble" can disrupt business relations and the like, and I would imagine that a developer wasting resources in such a fashion would certainly be considered problematic and, depending on the severity, not worth retaining as a brand.

And another thing: Why would a former Argonaut employee know such a good amount of detail (including the aforementioned "trouble with the developer") about what happened with something that was allegedly sold on to another company that they seemingly were not employed by? Whilst this isn't necessarily something that's impossible, combined with other things about the article, it ends up striking me as rather odd. After all, the only credit in the article is to "a former Argonaut Employee" [sic], and not to anyone from the other companies mentioned therein...

That aside, there's another important point to make, here: Argonaut's bankruptcy was big news at the time it occurred, and Croc was a multi-million selling series. Why do no reports of these assets being sold seem to exist out there? (Read on: There's a good reason for that...)

Even more importantly than that, Morpheme was an Argonaut subsidiary that Jez San bought back a mere week after Argonaut itself went under. This is why the Croc rights were with them to begin with, and this is why the Morpheme guys later mentioned that the rights went back to Jez San - because that's who they belong to.

I will go so far as to say that I don't believe that the rights were sold to Zenimax at all, not only because no proof exists that they were, and not only because the claim does not fit in with pre-existing known facts, but because proof DOES exist that they never left Jez San, who, a week after Argonaut's demise, bought back its valuable assets and subsidiaries and had one of those studios make new games using those assets (see above). Argonaut's only association with Zenimax - and the only documentation of any sort of association between the two companies at all that seems to exist out there - seems to be that Argonaut licensed Zenimax to publish two of their non-Croc titles (Malice, and Powerdrome) late in Argonaut's life.

I will say this: As fans of a series that is unfortunately dead, we should be very wary of believing claims of "what might have been". Unfortunately, there are people who try to capitalise on such things for the sake of attention or for other reasons I honestly can't fathom. (If you've ever seen that we have accounts here for "Argonaut" and "CrocMaker", those are that sort of thing - someone signed them up using Argonaut e-mail addresses they had seen, thinking that this would fool me. But I could see who it really was. ) It is especially important not to fall for such claims when the only sources for them are on pages that can be edited by anyone, without oversight, such as Wikipedia, and the linked Unseen64 article. This sort of thing pre-dates the internet by a long, long time, of course, but it doesn't hurt to bear it in mind.

EDIT: Thinking about it more, and for the sake of clarity, and given the fact that it can apparently be edited without oversight, I'm going to quote the "Croc 3" article as it currently is;

The original Croc is a platform game published by Fox Interactive and developed by Argonaut Software (AKA Argonaut Games) in 1997 for the PlayStation and Sega Saturn. A sequel, Croc 2, was released in 1999 but the third chapter of the series was never released, even if development was started. The game was called Croc 3: Stone of the Gobbos. It was to launch on Playstation 2, Gamecube and Xbox in 2005. The game would of been a direct sequel to the events of Croc 2, and would feature 2 player on all 3 platforms. In this game, Croc was to yet again, be faced with stopping Baron Dante and saving the Gobbos. However this time Dante has a spell that is not able to be stopped unless Croc finds the Sacred “Stone of the Gobbos”.

Sadly after Argonaut Software closed in 2004, the IP for Croc was sold to Zenimax Media Inc, and Zenimax Media had Mud Duck Productions continue development of Croc 3: Stone Of The Gobbos. However, the game was cancelled after trouble with the developer and thus, ended the Croc Franchise.

Thanks to a former Argonaut Employee for the contribution!

[Haruka]

You did homework.

At least its true that Jez is still owning the copyright, but I think at this point everybody learned to not trust wikipedia in terms of articles about gaming (I never check it when it concerns gaming, I prefer to check other sources).

I didn't know it was possible to edit info in Unseen 64 but its sad that the information doesn't match a lot what you said now concerning the game development.

Are we still in the same situation then, before reading these news?

(Pity that back in the times where Argonaut was still alive I was a child, and I barely knew some of the most complex stuff I know today)

[Forte Wily]

It would appear to me that the article changes nothing, since it doesn't match with known facts and all that.

It sounds like an interesting plot for a fan-game, at least, heh.

[SoniCroc]

Darn. Or something. I don't know, is it bad? I guess I at least feel like I have a slightly better grasp on the history of Croc's rights.

Btw, sorry, you are right Haruka, I incorrectly assumed that Rayman Origins was a reboot based on the name... I honestly know very little about Rayman. But I did play the demo of Rayman Legends at a store, and I thought it was funny.